a 'mooh' point

clearly an IBM drone

Day one of IS29500?

On August 15th 2008 ISO/IEC gave their "Go ahead" on the appeal against the IS29500-approval and the process leading to it. The decision was covered almost everywhere and the phrase that caused the most speculation was this:

According to the ISO/IEC rules, DIS 29500 can now proceed to publication as an ISO/IEC International Standard. This is expected to take place within the next few weeks on completion of final processing of the document, and subject to no further appeals against the decision.

(my emphasis)

So the battle was clearly not over since the appeal itself could also be appealed. The question was: until when? Then on September 1st news broke that the appealing countries would not appeal the decision to overthrow the appeals. Since it is my understanding that only the appeallants could appeal overthrowing the appeal (confused, anyone?), I suppose the case was finally closed.

But we are still waiting for the revised text from ITTF. I would imagine that they would hold the text until the period for appealing the appeal-overthrow was over with ... but when is that? This morning it occured to me that if the period was 30 days - today is the first working day after the deadline.

Could this be it then? Could today be the "Birthday" of IS29500?

Comments (17) -

Why would you think the period was thirty days ?

Luc Bollen

Jesper, you wrote "[...] the appealing countries would not appeal the decision.".

Please note that the CONSEGI 2008 declaration was made by representatives of *state IT organisations* from Brazil, South Africa and Venezuela (i.a.) and not by representatives of the National Bodies of these countries.  They said "Whereas we do not intend to waste any more resources on lobbying *our national bodies* to pursue the appeals further [...]".  So,
- we have no information about the intent of the NBs of Brazil, South Africa and Venezuela,
- we have no information about the intents of the India state IT organisation, nor the India NB.

About the period available for appealing, article 11.1.1 of the JTC1 Directives says:
"11.1.1 NBs have the right of appeal
• To JTC 1 on a decision of an SC;
• To TMB/SMB on a decision of JTC 1;
• To the Councils on a decision of the TMB/SMB.
Appeals shall be made within two months after receipt by the P-members of the report of JTC 1 or SC on the relevant meeting or vote by correspondence. The decision of the Councils on any case of appeal is final."

So, I'm afraid you still have to wait some time before celebrating the official birthday of IS29500...

Luc, hAl,

I was actually looking at the exact paragraph Luc mentions but somehow I failed to see the last bullet ("To the councils on a decision of the TMB/SMB"), which I would think comes into question here.

My guess on 30 days was just that - a guess - and I thank Luc for straightening things out.

Oh - and btw - I am not celebrating anything. I think the process around IS29500 and the debates surrounding it has been (at times) ridiculous and downright a disaster.

Smile

Luc Bollen

One additional point: I think it would make sense that any NB who voted as a member of the TMB/SMB is allowed to appeal the decision made, e.g. complaining that the text of the ballot they received was confusing, and asking the TMB/SMB vote to be restarted, based on a clearer ballot text.

Luc,

I think it would make sense that any NB who voted as a member of the TMB/SMB is allowed to appeal the decision made

I would think they already have that right. According to the section you quoted, the right to appeal is the right of any NB - not just the ones making the initial appeal.

(my emphasis)

NBs have the right of appeal
• To JTC 1 on a decision of an SC;
• To TMB/SMB on a decision of JTC 1;
• To the Councils on a decision of the TMB/SMB.

Could this be it then? Could today be the "Birthday" of IS29500?

please don't mention this beast... it is a shame for standardization, computer science and XML

god forgive us

Franco,

Please don't mention this beast... it is a shame for standardization, computer science and XML. God forgive us.

Well I'm sorry to be the one to break the news to you, but if all goes according to "our Machivellian plot", you'll hear much more about IS29500 in the future.

Wink

Interesting.  I watch this page:
www.iso.org/.../search.htm
Click the "Standards Under Development" to see the placeholders for the 4 parts of IS 29500.

I'm more hopeful to see them on the list of freely available specifications, though.  I can't imagine what the prices will be for these documents since ISO charges by the page.

It does look like, from the comments, that we need to wait until October.  Ah well, lots of work to do on ODF in the meantime ...

Dennis,

I'm more hopeful to see them on the list of freely available specifications, though. I can't imagine what the prices will be for these documents since ISO charges by the page.
This is actually one of the more "funny" aspects of ISO - that (almost all of?) the national bodies make money on selling paper-editions of standards.

... I think the OSS business model could be a wake-up call for the NBs Smile

Luc,

So, I'm afraid you still have to wait some time before celebrating the official birthday of IS29500...

Just one more thing:

I talked earlier today with the Danish NSB and they told me that IS29500 is still being edited by ITTF. Apparently they found some errors that they are now consulting the project editor to fix.

Also, I believe I found some words at some point in the JTC1 directives saying that appeals do not stop the process of publication of a standard, so theoretically IS29500 could be published at any time it is finished.

Bottom line:

Worst case scenario for final decision on IS29500 could be

* Dismissal of appeals by SMB/TMB on SC34-decision to approve IS29500: August 15th 2008
* Appeal to the Council on the dismissal of the appeal: October 15th 2008 (at the lastest)
* Final decision by Council (which is really, really final): January 15th 2009 (at the latest)

Coincidentally that will be just before Hell freezes over.

Smile

Jesper hi

I think everybody hopes and expects the 29500 final text to be distributed to SC 34 members very shortly (irrespective on when it is formally published). That at least is what I am hearing is likely.

When it's published it is also likely it (like 26300/ODF) will be made freely available. Since Ecma are planning to keep their version 100% in sync and freely available, it seems it will be a freely available specification in practice whatever happens.

The paying-for-pages business model of NBs is just one of the many things we all need to take a serious look at: it just doesn't make sense these days. Generally, of course, SC 34 standards are freely available ...

Sadly though ISO 26300:2006 Opendocument formats is still listed at ISO for 342 Swiss franks and has never been listed as a free format there I think.

I seem to remember though that it should be availalble for free.

hAl,

I seem to remember though that it should be availalble for free.

You can get ODF for free at standards.iso.org/.../index.html

Luc Bollen

Jesper,

> [...] theoretically IS29500 could be published at any time it is finished

No, see JTC1 Directives 11.1.5:
"When an appeal is against a decision respecting work in progress, the work shall be continued, up to and including submission of the final text to the ITTF"

> Worst case scenario for final decision on IS29500 could be [...]

I think the worst case can drag for a very long time.  The Council may decide (worst case: 15-Jan-09) that the TMB/SMB should re-vote.  Allow 2 months for drafting the ballot and re-voting.  If the TMB/SMB vote is in favour of hearing the appeal, a conciliation panel must be set-up and make his job.  The panel must report to the Secretaries-General within 3 months (see 11.3.4).  The Secretaries-General then inform the TMB/SMB, which will make their decision (see 11.3.5).  Allow 1 month for this, and we are now in Jul-09.  Then, depending on the decision of the TMB/SMB, additional work on the standard could take place (or not).  Worst case: the TMB/SMB asks for a new BRM, followed by a new vote.  We will then be in 2010 before a final text is agreed (or the text is rejected)...  Then the project editor must include the BRM decisions in the text, and ITTF must prepare the new text for publication.  We could then be around Jul-10 ?  

After the record in the number of pages for a submitted standard, Microsoft would become the owner of new record: the longest Fast Track process, and the first Fast Track that takes longer than the normal track.
Wink

We shouldn't underestimate the time needed by ITTF to proof the text of DIS 29500.  With ODF, the text was approved May 3rd, 2006 and publication did not occur until November 30th 2007, so 7 months later.  At 10x the text and 100x the number of changes I would be rather surprised if ITTF were able to complete its work on OOXML in less time than ODF.  

As for making the text freely available, that occurs after publication.  Typically SC34 would vote on a resolution at its next Plenary after publication, requesting that JTC1 make the text freely available.  Then JTC1 would act on this request at its next meeting.  This request has always been granted, so far as I know, when the standard is a PAS or Fast Track transposition that started as a freely available standard.

Ah, so there are the free ISO downloads.
It is not good that ISO still has those free standards listed in their catalog on their home page with a pricetag still on them.

Rick Jelliffe

The downloads are PDFs. The license is:

"The documents you are about to download are a single-user, non-revisable Adobe Acrobat PDF file, to store on your personal computer. You may print out and retain one printed copy of the PDF file. This printed copy is fully protected by national and international copyright laws, and may not be photocopied or reproduced in any form. Under no circumstances may it be resold."
  standards.iso.org/.../index.html

The paid versions are for printed paper versions (or IIRC multiple use electonic versions.)  In the case of fast-track standards (FT or PAS) you would expect the standard to also be available electronically for free from the originating organization in synch, according to the branding arrangements, and also potentially from any National Body that transposes the international standard into a national standard (which usually involves sticking a different cover page on, for English-language countries, but may also involve translation).

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